S1E5: Second Order Thinking

May 19, 2020

This week, Christoph and Chris welcome special guest, Lee Froemke, a mechanical engineer from SVL. They discuss the topics of hospitality vulnerability to waterborne pathogens, data on ambient temperatures and occupancy rates and hospitality’s minimalist water quality management style.


Christoph Lohr: Welcome to episode number five of the LiquiTalks podcast. I’m Christoph Lohr, your host and Director of Education and Strategic Projects at LiquiTech.

Chris Ebener: Joining you today is Chris Ebener, also Director of Engineering for LiquiTech. Looking forward to having another podcast today.

Christoph Lohr: Likewise, Chris, while we’ve got a guest on the show again this week. We definitely missed you last week but looking forward to kind of going through things again this week with you.

Chris Ebener: Can’t wait.

Christoph Lohr: Likewise. Well, before we get our guest on, I did want to kind of cover a couple of interesting developments that are going on in our realm right now. The first up is I’m tentatively going to be jumping on and helping Purdue University with their building plumbing systems class, which I understand is open to non-Purdue students as well.

So, they have a whole process to sign up for if you’re interested in attending that class. So, I had a chance to speak with Professor Andrew Bolton.  Hopefully, we get him on the show as a guest as well. I’m really excited to be helping them out and lending my experience. Another exciting development is that there’s an ASPE webinar, that’ll be coming up sometime over the next two weeks or within the next two weeks on COVDI-19 and plumbing systems.

And so hopefully, I’m really excited about this too. ASPE brings their expertise in and their knowledge base and to help connect the dots between construction and water. So, an exciting development. And last thing, it was interesting, Chris, have you been attending any of these construction industry webinars at all lately?

Chris Ebener: This last week has been a little full for me; I’ve been trying to catch up. I know you’ve definitely been on them and I’ve seen a couple of posts from you on this particular topic.

Christoph Lohr: It seems like several of the sort of construction side, so whether it’s a MEP firm or a construction sort of a professional society. They have a number of conversations about COVID-19 and new developments in water and have you heard of, I guess Chris, have you heard of second order thinking before?

Chris Ebener: I preach second order and third order thinking.

Christoph Lohr: I was going to say third order for sure.

Chris, do you want to give your summary on what second and third order or at least second order thinking is?

Chris Ebener: Well, the bare bones of it is the thought process that when we make a decision, it’s not just the outcome that we were looking for, that we need to assess, but also the secondary.

And like I said, even the tertiary. Outcomes that can occur as a chain of events from a single decision. I think in particular, as I saw you post on a recommendation that was made to switch to touchless faucets for hand washing and healthcare.

Christoph Lohr: Yeah, it was even past healthcare. And there was a couple of webinars that I listened to that we’re talking about the conversion in a number of spaces to being more mindful of infections and how bacteria and viruses are going to be a higher priority. And I’ve seen several industries talking about how healthcare, the standard of care is going to elevate, and it’s going to be a much higher level for cleanliness.

Which would more likely than not include domestic water coming into the building. But I also have seen similar predictions of hotels increasing their cleanliness of their incoming water, or they’re the cleanliness in the facility to kind of match up with what the hospitals used to be at, maybe up to that level or just short of that level.

One of the topics that’s come up in my post has been specifically, I was kind of geared, cause it seems like a lot of people on the calls tend to have a mechanical, sort of an HVAC or electrical background. And one of the things in a couple of these webinars that I listened to was all a lot of places are going to go with touchless faucets.

We won’t want to be touching surfaces cause we’re going to be worried about COVID. I sat there and I was digesting it and then I started thinking through it and just like you mentioned the second order thinking, what’s the back effect? And I realized that if we just start switching out manual faucets with sensor faucets. All of a sudden, we’re going to have shorter run times on the water in a number of areas. And for those of you not familiar, manual faucets are ones where you turn the levers. Sensor faucets are of those ones where you kind of put it in front of it and just touchless at hands-free, it just turns on.

Well, the problem with a sensor faucet is you don’t have the same runtime as you do with a manual faucet. So, what does that mean is that you don’t flush the water out as much, which means the water age increases, which means you can have bacterial amplification. And I was just blown away that, again, this is one of those things that nobody was thinking about.

And I sort of mentioned, it does seem like there’s this kind of tendency within the world of water and or people outside the world of water thinking about plumbing systems, thinking about water systems and thinking that they’re very simple. And there’s a great quote from   the CEO of the American Waterworks Association.

And he says, I was just talking about how water is so complex and there was this Farnam street post on, we’ll post a link in our transcript on this podcast where they talked about first order thinking, second order thinking, and just kind of all came together to me and just, yeah, the blog post basically indicated that if you’re going to make that shift, you have to reroute your entire infrastructure, all of your branch piping for each one of those fixtures that you swap out.

For each one of those fixtures that you swap out to prevent stagnation of water. And it just, again, it was one of those things that it’s an idea that’s thrown out. It’s this thought process that thinks that plumbing is simple and then of course there’s a whole series of second order thinking unintended consequences.

And it’s the street article that I was referring to they talk about how first order thinking is fast and easy. Second order thinking is more deliberate, right? You’re thinking in terms of interactions and time understanding. You know, sort of that, while we might be well-intentioned, sometimes our interventions can cause additional harm or cause harm.

And so that second order thinker is somebody that asks themselves the question. And then what? And I think in this case, again, with some of these recommendations that are coming out just to swap out manual fosters with sensor faucets. That’s the end of it. And instead of, let’s fix the problem of having touched the surfaces to prevent spread of code.

But the second order effect is now you’ve created a whole host of issues. And Chris, I bet  you’ve been dealing with that for a long time.

Chris Ebener: It’s funny, it’s that this concept of all of this has happened before. The idea of touchless faucets as a way to prevent transmissible diseases is not a new idea. We saw a huge surge in the use of touchless faucets in healthcare over the last decade. And, as you know, the water treater in the room, I’ve also seen a resurgence of electric eye faucets and electronic locks that’s get ripped out of health care facilities and put back to risk blades and,  more traditional manual fixtures due to issues.

You’ve already mentioned the water, the usage perspective, but also there’s this secondary issue that’s actually an interesting paper published on the topic of the complexity of those particular devices and the amount of surfaces and the O rings and all of the plastics in their construction allow a lot of surface area for the growth of biofilms and organisms so that an electric eye faucet has inherently more risk attached to it. Now there have been some advancements in this area in terms of design. But by and large, the electric guy faucets, you’re going to see kind of come right off the shelf into these types of environments are not going to have that level of thought put into them. They’re not at that price point.

Christoph Lohr: I think there’s certainly not trying to knock touch these faucets. I think there’s some developments that are occurring. I’ve seen a couple of manufacturers, again, maybe we can get them on as a guest of the show. You know, where they have the ability to flush out their faucets remotely.

You just have to press a button on your phone, and you can set off like 5, 10, 15 or more faucets in an area to kind of get some flushing, which would be awesome. I’ve certainly made the prediction of more facilities and the plumbing infrastructure, especially for hospitals.

And then I think facilities like hotels, later will follow suit will become much more automated. You’re going to start seeing smart plumbing fixtures and smart plumbing systems. And there’s been a number of folks that I’ve talked to over the last couple of weeks that would agree with that.

But again, sort of a first order thinking is just switching out the faucet to make a touch, just to solve the covert problem. And in the second order thinking you as well might have had a good result there, but all of your other results down the road, past that point are all going to be bad.

Whereas, maybe looking at something that’s a little bit more holistic upfront will lead to a better set of results. So it was a little bit frustrating, but at the same time, that’s what gives me energy, and I’m sure for you too, Chris, is helping educate folks in that realm, in the world.

Well, we were talking a little bit about how hotels are potentially shifting. And I think with that, it’s a great time to introduce our guest. We have Lee Froemke with SVL, which is a manufacturers rep headquartered out of Roseville, Minnesota. Lee’s based out of Fargo, North Dakota, and he’s a mechanical engineer focusing on the sales side.

And we had a recent great conversation with Lee and I invited him to come onto the show. Lee, thank you so much for joining us. How are you doing today?

Lee Froemke: Guys. Thanks a lot. I appreciate it. Doing good. Like most of us just trying to keep everything moving forward. It’s still a busy time for a lot of people. Thanks for having me.

Christoph Lohr: Glad you could join us. We kind of just said about  where you’re coming from, but you want to give us a little bit more,  give our listeners a little bit more background.

Lee Froemke: Yeah, absolutely. I’m a mechanical engineer with SVL is Schwab, Vollhaber, Lubratt. Manufacturer’s rep, as you stated, we’ve been Midwest based here for Western Wisconsin, Minnesota, North Dakota since 1967. And, I’ve been with the company 14 years. We call on engineers, contractors, and owners and basically deal with engineered systems on the mechanical side.

So, if it touches air, water or you in the space and it has to do with temperature and humidity. That’s really where we’ve cut our teeth in dealing with engineered systems. And so we deal across the board from hospitals, very dialed into the waterborne pathogens side of the world, all the way to hospitality and hotels where we work nationally with many firms. And basically if it comes to space comfort and I’m keeping you either warm, cold, humid or dry, that’s kind of where we try to help people out.

Christoph Lohr: That’s awesome. Well, our conversation from a couple of weeks ago sparked a number of items for Chris and me on just a number of different things that we were learning from you.

And it sounded from what we were calling you were kind of learning from us too and figured to continue the conversation here today. And one of those things that we kind of started the conversation last time we spoke. Which was talking about sort of the vulnerability  of hospitality. So, vulnerability of hotels when it comes to waterborne pathogens and you had some insights into that, that we were hoping that you could share with us.

Lee Froemke: In listening to prior LiquiTalks on the podcast here really sparked some interesting things. I mean, you have healthcare side of the world really dialed into this situation and really dialed into that water quality.

Whereas to be frank, and I think we’ve all talked about it before, is hotels that this really isn’t on the forefront of their mind, right? We put up, I just mopped, watch out the floors, wet signs from a risk and liability standpoint, but we don’t do a lot when it comes to waterside and waterborne pathogens and just you guys sparking a lot of different thoughts,  in my brain per our discussion is they were really  from a hotel standpoint is they’re doing a lot with the little is what it comes down to and like every business you try to run as lean, as efficient as you can, and you have a lot of moving parts within that hotel world, you have a variability of tenants and occupants. That is a continuous changing path. Whereas even if you slide out of healthcare and into an office complex, there is some similarities there. If you have a tenant in a building and it probably has some reliable or consistent water usage, it may not be much, but you at least have some consistency there.

Whereas in a hotel, you’re continually variable. I mean, we have a lot of varying pieces there, they’re really on the minimalist side that, that you’re referred to. They’re trying to do a lot with a little in the closed loop, which is the closed domestic side that’s coming from the municipality.

There isn’t a lot of thought put into it right now and I think, as we’ve stated before and Chris, you’ve said it with the changes in the history of what’s happening in these water systems.  It’s becoming far closer and closer to the forefront that there’s more planning needed to happen here.

Chris Ebener: And Lee, our conversation really went into a bunch of different directions, but I think where this all kind of focused around was the fact that while it has been in a very much an outbreak response model in the hospitality world for dealing with waterborne pathogens that with the recent events, national quarantine and very, very low occupancy rates. I believe the last number I saw was about 25% nationwide that these buildings are more vulnerable than they’ve ever been even the ones that are still occupied are obviously seeing very low occupancy and then the ones that are completely unoccupied represent a huge risk to the owner and to the folks coming into those facilities. If steps aren’t taken to properly bring them back online.

Lee Froemke:  Spot on. I mean, in just to add to that, Chris, is the fact that one of the first things you think about it in hotel world is, when it comes to domestic water, are we running out of hot water? That’s everybody when you think of a hotel. Ah, geez, the forest floor is out of hot water, right? Because everybody was showering. And from earlier on in your guys’ talk and listening here in the waiting area, you were talking about touchless faucets, it was interesting. Even that point of it is the lack of water use and how that drives it hotels are known a little bit is water hawks, right?

We don’t build a tenant for hot water use. So, take a 30-minute shower and relax. I mean, so that’s what a lot of people are doing. You’re really doing a lot of purging and the age of the water and then in it. Highly occupied hotel is one of the best buildings, in my opinion, compared to anything.

I mean, even compared to healthcare, I would probably rivals some of the hot water usage in hotels that these things are, these showers are running all the time, so that’s a good thing  from a water pathogen standpoint, keep giving me fresh water. Now that they’re empty and we’ll probably talk about it here, and we’ve set these temperatures back.

Now I have a building that hasn’t used water in three months, two to three months. And that risk and what’s in there coupled with what are the steps to actually do an economical and pragmatic approach to. Risk reduction. I mean that’s really, again, I think you guys have said it and I’m stealing your taglines, but, it’s all about risk reduction and  how much can I reduce my risk at an economical cost is how I view it, from their perspective.

Chris Ebener: And then kind of on that, on the opposite tack, you alluded to it there.  It was interesting to us, when we were discussing this, that you have a very impressive ability to monitor temperatures at a very granular level inside these buildings because of your dealings on the HVAC side.

And again, I’m a huge fan of connected devices. So that was super cool for me to see. But really the risk factor that is going on notices to save money, obviously we’re turning down the HVAC systems in order to just remain, an ambient temperature. And all well and good in Minnesota where the ambient temperature hasn’t risen much above 70 degrees on any given day.

But in the Southwest and other warmer areas of the country you’ve got room temperatures that are what in the eighties.

Lee Froemke: Yeah, absolutely. So, that gets back to the second order thinking, right? And, the third order, thinking of what are the side effects of this? And the primary thinking is let’s save money and, set some systems back.

Absolutely, it is. In warmer climates, you can very easily have a building in the eighties. We’re still managing our moisture in the building, which is of course, utmost importance to keep our spaces dry. So, we aren’t building up a highlight into high moisture content in the space.

There’s the setbacks that some of these hotels are seeing can, can lead to increase water temperatures, which means all of our domestic water systems are sitting in an 80 degree, environment.

Christoph Lohr: That was one of those points that you made that you try to be as thorough as you can, with any kind of engineering background. But when you have these conversations and you bring in multiple perspectives. Yeah, that was one where you said, hey, we’re turning back  the thermostats to help save energy in these unoccupied hotels, you know?

And that to me makes total sense from an energy standpoint. Again, one of those, I didn’t even think of that as the first order, and then you start thinking, we started talking, we were realized that quickly that second order thought is, wow, now we’re potentially increasing the temperature in that ceiling space, basically where all the piping is routing, and now you have this potential to have another increase in temperature that amplifies that bacteria.

Have you been seeing any rough data or general data on what those temperature ranges are inside hotels right now?

Lee Froemke: We have in a lot of facilities, a lot of owners and developers across the spectrum have adopted a lot of these connected devices and a lot of visibility.

And the main reason is the economics of it now compared to compare to even I’ll say four to five years ago. Or maybe a hair longer five years ago. Plus, the economics of it now is you can’t ignore it because it’s one of those pragmatic decisions. If it costs too much, then we probably wouldn’t be able to do it.

But when the economics push you into it because it makes so much sense, it’s hard not to do it. And once you see what you can get for data out of there, it’s a big deal. So, getting back to your question, I should get to, is we’re seeing anywhere from 75 to upwards 80 to 83 degrees. Very common temperatures right now and in some of these spaces.

Christoph Lohr: Wow. And that would lead right to that level where you could see specifically the Legionella but other potential waterborne pathogen operation.

Lee Froemke: And just to add to it quick, Christoph, is the fact that normally put, how many hotel units are in the country. I mean, I must look at the current numbers, but it’s thousands upon thousands of hundreds of thousands.

And in most of these facilities, they’re using so much water that inadvertently, even though there’s not a lot of management. On a water management side, you’re still have so much water usage. I feel that, I would say at least you’re on the lower risk spectrum of a lot of buildings.

Now that some of those occupancies have decreased so drastically with all the travel that we’re seeing currently in today’s environment. Now, you’ve gone to this extreme where we went from contained temperatures and normal 70 to 74 degrees spaces to 82 to 83 degrees spaces.

And we have literally 5% of water usage to 0% of water usage. So, you’ve just turned the dial in such a short amount of time on everybody’s head that that’s the big part that’s left out is we just don’t have any water usage here.

Chris Ebener: And kind of to that third order effect as well. Now Christoph, we’ve talked about this a little bit, but that if it’s, say 82 degrees in the room, the interstitial space, the plenum space, where the hot water is running as well as the cold water, that space is going to get to be potentially five to 10 degrees warmer than ambient. So, we might have near warm water sitting inside the walls of these buildings on both the cold and the hot side.

Christoph Lohr: Definitely a concern and I mean it just can compound on itself. One of the things, Lee, that you said, that is really interesting, you were kind of talking about how this crisis really kind of just came out of nowhere. I think in our previous conversation, we kind of talked through about.

It’s a challenge to preempt something like this, obviously, but even planning for it in the current environment and trying to come up with a game plan. It sounded like from our last conversation that there’s some, almost structural challenges or systems-based challenges right now for hospitality, when it comes to managing their water quality.

Can you, expand a little bit on those?

Lee Froemke: Sure, and feel free to lead me here. The big change I think it’s kind of repeating here a comment from earlier, but just to get us going, is it’s the risk management side of it. Where we’ve dealt, so much in, and again, I’m going to reference an earlier LiquiTalks episode that basically everybody was so focused on you.

You go to the low hanging fruit. So, when we talk about pool chemistry and hot tub chemistry, which is in most of these hotels. You’re looking at these spaces, and those are the ones where people got sick, right? And of course, Legionella, as we all know, and it’s been discussed many times, but coming out of a cooling tower, it gets its name, out of Philadelphia. And everybody focuses on these cooling towers.  And the part that is interesting. And, Chris, you made this comment earlier, but is the cooling tower side of the world has been addressed so heavily.

And it’s looked at it so directly and I’m going to speak from my experiences on the cooling tower side, is it got so much attention that everybody up their game on it. Over the years in cooling towers are actually, I can’t think of the last time when I went up to a cooling tower and it was a really nasty one.

And when you get to them and you look at them and you go, whoa, I mean, very quickly you can tell the ones where the water treatment guy hasn’t been there or he’s moved on in other ventures but in a lot of them that you see, they don’t look that bad.

They really don’t. And if you come and do testing on them and they’re taking care of it with chemicals and you can douse the heck out of them what you need to and if they’re a little bit over-treated, it doesn’t hurt us. Well, you can’t do it half. You don’t have that luxury on a waterside domestic system.

Portable water.  And, so I mean, from a standpoint like that is, they focused on these things in hospitality where they’ve done very well on pools, hot tubs in generalities, they’ve done well there and they’ve done well in the cooling towers.

But that domestic water system has been, I’ll say a little bit forgotten because it hasn’t caused much issue. And again, part of that reason I think is so much water use, and people really look at this and think a lot of this is being handled from. The city water side, the municipality, but there’s a handoff that’s happens there.

Christoph Lohr: Definitely. And that was, I think, that study that you point to is that CDC study and Chris, did we talk about that on one of the last episode? Was that one that you had kind of talked through?

Chris Ebener: I think it was just in our conversation with Lee. I think it’s an important thing to kind of mention here.

And, again, Lee’s already covered kind of our feelings on cooling towers in general is that they’ve been largely handled. There’s still obviously a point of risk because they aerosolized water and they all could also connect as large reservoirs for waterborne pathogens. But that the thought process that say 25% of all Legionnaires’ disease cases are caused by cooling towers as one kind of perpetuated from data related to the CDC investigations of waterborne outbreaks. And when you really break that down, their investigations only really cover a very small fraction of the total caseload. Again, in 2018,they’ve keep ratcheting up that number, but we’re up to almost 10,000 confirmed cases in 2018 in the US their investigations encompass maybe 200 maximum of 300 cases per year. And the methodology is such that it tends to be more biased towards cooling tower outbreaks. Again, very large dispersed outbreaks. And the process of investigation where you start with the cooling tower audit and test, can lead to the kind of false conclusion that the cooling towers were the only source when Legionella as specifically as a waterborne pathogen, it got into that cooling tower from the domestic water side. And chances are the distribution systems around that cooling tower have at one point or are currently contaminated with Legionella in one way, shape, or form. When you really break it down by the numbers, and I know, I’ve done it and I’ve actually seen it. The real number of cases that come from cooling towers these days is probably less than 1% of the, total load in the US.

Christoph Lohr: Chris, and that was 1.2 that, really resonated with me. That cooling towers, that number is overestimating probably the total percentage of cases.

I think we kind of speculated, our opinion was that probably if you look at the data, the CDC report said 25% of outbreaks were from cooling towers and 75% of outbreaks was from the plumbing fixtures basically. And I think we were kind of based on the data and our interpretation of it, the true number in the, US maybe closer to 80, 85, maybe even 90 plus percent, plumbing fixture related rather than cooling tower related, correct?

Chris Ebener: Yes. And again, when you talk about, we’re engineers, right? We talk about root cause; legionella comes from the source water. So, when you really, get back to, get away from the causal factors, where did it come from? It came in through that main, that water main coming into that building, into that water supply.

Christoph Lohr: Well, Lee, you know, before we wrap up for the day or for this episode, one thing we wanted to ask you was as someone that is sort of making that switch from the mechanical side to the plumbing side as far as understanding waterborne pathogens, what’s been some of your top lessons learned about Legionella recently? Maybe some of the stuff that you’ve kind of learned that’s kind of surprised you.

Lee Froemke: Sure. I mean my thing is really that, when we’ve had our discussions even,  recently in over the years where we talked that actually quite a while ago, Christoph, what is it, the ASPE CEU, which you’ve been heavily involved with, I believe, but the short version of that, the cliff notes version, there’s just so much good data in there. And when you start looking at Legionella and reading about it, it is very interesting to me.

Some of this that opens your eyes a little bit more as you the mindset is that city water has you covered, if I was pumping from a well and it’s my water and I need to treat it and put chlorine in the well and treat the well, and I need to monitor and watch that well water to make sure what I’m getting out of it.

Is what I want, not what I don’t want. Right? Bacteria and waterborne pathogens. I want clean, crisp water, maybe with some iron, maybe with some calcium. And so, I’m good with those things, but I don’t want the other bad stuff. And I think the idea is you get a report in the city is it’s responsible and you go to the Flint, Michigan scenario, they’re responsible for getting clean water into my house and  whether that’s through led pipes that are coded and  haven’t been and have a nice scale  that hasn’t caused any problems for years and you change the water quality and you start losing led into the pipe. The same kind of thought, I think happens for waterborne pathogens is.

I think we assume the water is great and perfect coming out of the tap because it’s from the city, but in reality, the water coming from the city is good right up until it hits the pressure reduction zone in the backflow preventer. That’s their water. The city water comes up to that point and then you’ve paid for it.

And after you paid for it, now it’s your water. And if you choose to store it in an 80 degree bucket for a couple months, or if you choose to just run a lot of it, have run a lot of hot water cause you got a lot of people showering. And that’s your method of control. And it’s worked and hasn’t caused issues for me, I think is the municipality.

We think we feel like we open the tap and the water comes from the city and it’s safe because there’s a report for it. And it was safe, and it did have residual chlorine and it did have a level of safety, but stuff still comes down the line. And when it’s left unabated and unchecked, it can be a real scary problem and issue.

And realistically, kind of going back on the other lessons learned that I’ve thought of is I’ve never thought a lot about, aerating faucets as much as you guys have re-kind of put into my head. So, from a mechanical standpoint, we’re closed loop guys traditionally, and we think of closed loop systems.

So, I, on the hydronic heating side, guess what I got? Do what we put inhibitors in. I put glycol, I put phosphate, I throw some pH, controllers in either up or down. And that same water goes around in a circle all day long, and we check it every year because we’re not introducing new pathogens and we’re not introducing new food sources.

Typically, we hope we’re not introducing new forward sources, or we got a leak, or we’ve added water. Right? So, a closed loop guy, it life’s easy because I can seal it up. The pop cans sealed from Coca Cola. And it’s got sugar, it’s got water. And I’m not worried about Legionella stored at 80. Loosen fizz.

When I open it up and no big deal on this, I’m continually adding a random amount of food. I’m continually adding a random amount of water, and I have a variability in my building level system. It is a lot of variables to get your head around. But just thinking about it and thinking of some of those economic decisions that you can make has really been an eye opener.

I’ll say for me as I continue to try to guide our clients to better and risk reduction solutions that work for them.

Christoph Lohr: Awesome, well, great summary and just wanting to say thank you again for joining us on the podcast today.

Lee Froemke: Thanks a lot guys. I appreciate it. All your guys’ help and insights as we navigate through this and look forward to talking again.

Christoph Lohr: Definitely. That concludes this week’s episode of liquid talks podcast. Again, I’m Christoph Lohr, your host. If you want to reach out to me, you can find me on LinkedIn at Christoph Lohr, PE or you can reach out to me on Twitter @lohrthoughts.

Chris Ebener: And if you want to reach me, you can reach out to me on LinkedIn. That’s at Chris Ebener or on Twitter @chris_ebener.

Christoph Lohr: Awesome. And we look forward to seeing all of you next week on episode number six of LiquiTalks.



Meet the Host

Director of Education & Strategic Projects

And Our Guest


Lee Froemke

Mechanical Engineer at SVL

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